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Love and Logic

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Love and Logic is a philosophy by Jim Fay and Foster Cline for logical, loving consequences and handling of behavior. Many books are published for parents and teachers alike. Many teachers have come to PT to discuss and share how best to implement this management philosophy in their classroom.
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Posted by:TeachFun #135008

I bought Love and Logic after I observed my 16 year old son's high school counselor use it on my dear son! Wow was it effective! After reading through the book I realized my dear best friend uses the strategies on her own children, now age 6-7. She was an ED (emotional disabled) teacher so REALLY knows about follow through on consequences, but her children are absolutely the most well behaved children I've ever experienced.

I did plan to use the strategies last year, but my class was so easy I was never prompted to pull it in. From what I hear, I think I may be reading and working with Love and Logic THIS YEAR.

Your question about disruption from the quiet area - I don't know from personal experience with Love and Logic, but we do have students "refocus" in another classroom....

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Posted by:JRichard #135027

One quick and easy way to present L&L to teachers is to teach them how to go "brain dead" when faced with arguing students. Using enforceable statements is a quick and easy task they can learn in one session and begin using in their class the next day.

Also check out the L&L site. They have many articles you can print and distribute to the teachers, or maybe you might make a table with the info on it for those interested to grab. If you have any L&L materials (books or CDs), I might bring those for the table as well so they can look at them and get an idea what L&L is all about.

I would also make sure you mention what "Love" and "Logic" mean (Love means allowing your students to make mistakes when the cost is low, Logic means...

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Posted by:JRichard #135028

If you go to the Love & Logic site, you can find a picture of the poster in their kit for teachers. I will try to remember what it says as closely as I can:

How I Run My Love & Logic Classroom

I will treat you with respect, so you know how to treat me.

Feel free to do anything that doesn't cause a problem for anyone else.

If you cause a problem, I will ask you to solve it.

If you can't solve the problem, or choose not to, I will do something.

What I will do will depend on the special person and the special situation.

I actually, have already been able to use L&L a couple of times this week (first week of school). Here are my descriptions of what I did:


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I use it
Posted by:Mackenzie AK #135019

and it works well for me. I do remove kids from the class, I let them know that to be a member of the room they must be contributing in a positive manner. I have an agreement with another teacher in the building and it is not fun to go there, they go into a corner and don't get to watch or interact with the room at all. I also will call home first, when I get the chance, and "prep" mom or dad with what happened, without letting the child know and then have the child call home and tell mom and dad about his/her day and why specifically they are calling home. This is usually a couple of hours after the incident, I have had time to cool down and the child has thought about the action for quite awhile. One liners, and you're out, but that...

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Posted by:eagertolearn #135006

I love to use this phrase when students want to aruge: "I argue with students after the buses leave." This usually stops them, if they continue I say shall I call your family to come get you? For sure this stops the arguing! :oI also like using the broken record strategy (keep repeating the question or direction you want the child to answer or complete).

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Love and Logic
Posted by:javamomma #135007

What do you do when someone backtalks a 'one liner?' Keep giving them the one liner.

I love using Love and Logic with my classroom and my own children.

*one student was to "sick" to participate in our writing lesson. When the class lined up to go to pe I mustered all the sympathy I could and said "Oh x, I really dont think you should go to gym today. You are sick and you know how hot it gets in the gym. Coach x would be very upset if you got sick in his class. I think you should lay your head down while the class is at PE."
needless to say he felt much better the rest of the day. :s)

*my own daughter is a grouch when she wakes up. We always leave on vacation at 3:30 in the morning....

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I "love" it :)
Posted by:teach4fun #135010

I use it in my room, I find myself using it 90% of the day and then there are those times that the discussion and consequence method just isnt quick enough and I go back to being reactionary. I have a big difference in myself especially this year. It is hard work I have to admit and the kids dont really get it at first especially if they live in a reactionary household. I have a really challening class this year and for a week or so I lost my cool and completely lost the love and logic way of things and i was teary after school from being emotionally and physically drained, I reread parts of love and logic for teachers and got back in the swing of things and feel much better about my teaching and about me.
I suggest reading up as much as...

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Posted by:Teach'n'Learn #135011

Teaching with Love and Logic is a great book. There's also a forum for people using the principles.

It's big on using the right language with children to offer choices, stay out of power struggles, and let children experience natural consequences (and learn from their mistakes.)

This is what I love about it. Choices are so wonderful. We still have to use "pull a card" as a schoolwide discipline system, but I just incorporate it into the choices "You may sit quietly in your seat during SSR time, or you may lie on the floor quietly, or you may pull a card and read in the office."

I also love "Feel free to . . ." My favorite this year is "Feel free to be as chatty as you want until we cross the yellow line." The kids...

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2nd grade team leader/MRT
Posted by:Diane Hill #135009

I don't know what i would do w/o love & logic....i feel that if you use it the way it is intended (no sarcasm, but empathy) it will make a HUGE difference in your life--You can remain calm, which enables you to keep the upperhand. My second graders respond positively in EVERY situation (though the difficult ones just require more time). You must be consistent!

* A student tied his shoelaces together during sharing time by my rocking chair. My response was, "I understand that you thought it was a funny thing to do. Let's keep them that way all day!" Later, when it was time to go to lunch/recess, he wanted to untie them, to which my reply was, "But won't it be funny all day?" and he said, "But I can't walk fast enough", and I said, "Wow...that's a bummer that we'll all get...

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Posted by:JRichard #135012

You have to say them with REAL empathy. If you don't mean it, yes, it would be sarcastic. The key to L&L is to build relationships with your students. Part of that is to use empathy when they have problems. "Boy, that sure is a bummer. I hate when that happens to me."

Jim Fay recommends that you whisper, or at least speak quietly when you use empathy because it is very hard to be sarcastic and whisper at the same time.

I love L&L and have been using it for four years now (at home and in school) with great success.


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Posted by:wig #135013

I admit that was my first reaction until I actually was able to use it successfully. What helped was receiving the training via the video tapes. We went from Canter to L&L and the change in the overall attitude in our students has been amazing. Teaching children to take responsibility is very important. Helping them to learn how to take care of their problems is a life skill.

Yes, there are "pat phrases" in the book, but they are examples - not absolutes. For instance, "bummer" is not a part of my normal vocabulary, so I would never use it.

If you think of it as sarcasm, it is sarcasm and it really is not the program for you. I think it is important that all teachers use a plan they are comfortable with and works.

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Posted by:Teach'n'Learn #135014

The phrases (which are only examples, feel free to use your own words!) sound sarcastic in my head, too, but that's 'cause sarcasm is my first defense and offense (trying to change that). I've had an opportunity to hear two different teachers use L&L and they are not sarcastic at all. They are speaking with real empathy the exact same phrases that might come out sarcastically from me.

It's the empathy that makes or breaks the system, imo, but that doesn't mean the empathy is what is making them responsible. Empathy lets them know you're on their side, you believe in them, you're genuinely sorry when they make mistakes. That encourages them to develop responsible behavior.

Repeating a one-liner is simply not being dragged into an argument with a student or child. If you can avoid being dragged...

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Posted by:JRichard #135004

I do the same sort of thing, but I phrase it as a choice, "You may choose to do your homework at home and turn it in or time, or you may stay after school with me and complete it then. It's up to you!" I say this with a giddy smile on my face and I practice being really happy to give them the choice--not focusing on the negatives.

I also do this with videos. My classroom has to be pretty dark for the kids to see the videos and they tend to get sleepy. I do not show videos often and I make sure to limit them to 30 minutes max. With this in mind, I offer the following choice before each video, "You may pay attention and watch the video now or attend my afterschool showing of the video for folks who feel like sleeping or...

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One more
Posted by:nuhusker98 #126904

One more technique we've been taught to use, especially with those tough kids that you don't quite feel like you're getting through to is "noticing". Noticing is not using compliments, it is just as it says. Noticing something about said child. It's also not about noticing improvements on academics. For example, let's say that your tough one is a little girl. She enters the room, and you notice that her hair is done in pigtails today. You say, "_______, I see that you've done your hair in pigtails today." You don't say that they look nice, or that they make her look nice, just notice. Pick out one thing each day that you notice about the student. Remember, don't use something like, I notice you got 100% on your math test. Just stick to things about the person. I notice you are wearing a belt today, I...

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Posted by:jensw #135025

Maybe you could try "noticing" with the child? I have a kid who is exactly the same way, and his parents won't even conference willingly with me/principal. She actually hung up on the principal!! He had to tell her that her son would not be allowed back in class until she met with us! :eek:

I'm trying noticing to get him on my side, but I just started it last week and I skipped several days because I was so overwhelmed with other students that it slipped my mind. You're supposed to notice something about the child every day for two weeks, no judgements just notice. "Hey, I notice you really like Captain Underpants books." "Hey, I notice that you always bring an apple for snack." etc.

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Posted by:JRichard #135026

I agree with the noticing. That has worked well for me to imrpove my relationship with a student. Once you have done this several times over several weeks, try asking him to do something, "just for me." If you are building a positive relationship with him, he will probably do it.

However, if he's having self-concept issues, you should try the attribution theory, which is where you point out something he did right and ask he how he did it. I made a poster that says "How did I do that? I tried hard. I studied. I am getting smarter." I ask them to pick one of the choices. When they vocalize one of those choices, it bypasses their "affective filter" of their subconscious which keeps out all information that contradicts what they already "know" because it is THEM that is saying it, not us. Over time,...

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Re: love and logic
Posted by:RJean #135015

I discovered love and logic when I student taught (it was used at the school as a school-wide plan) I did more reading and thought it was a great fit for me. I have just finished subbing 1.5 years (I will start as full time teacher this year!!!) and learned that the days that I gave choices and held the students responsible for their actions (according to their choices) were the best days. The days that I forgot ... or was having a bad day myself and didn't give the kids ownership were the days that were more difficult. Since I just subbed I could pretty much only give small choices (want the lights on or off? want to have your read aloud before or after recess...) so I am looking forward to creating a love and logic classroom this year.

The books I loved were "Teaching with Love and...

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Re: love and logic
Posted by:Teach'n'Learn #135016

I tried it for the first time with a pretty rough group last year. The days that I used it went better than other days. The biggest thing to remember is that "creatures under stress revert to prior learning." Works for humans as well as any other thinking being. So if you're used to being a dictator, you're going to have a tendency to revert back to that when it's a really rough day, for example. Remembering that and being concious about using L&L will help you survive. Also remember that it takes time for the really rough ones to buy in completely, so don't expect it to work immediately. And "noticing" works!.

I didn't remember any of those things, and it would have been so much better for me if I had!

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Re: Love and Logic for Middle School...
Posted by:bratt #135017

I work with 5th and 6th graders in Special Ed. My area is students with emotional and behavioral difficulties. I think that Love and Logic can be very useful for older students. Even using the "lingo" of love and logic: "what a bummer, how sad" etc. would be a great tool for teachers to have. The love and logic institute sells a CD specifically about Love and Logic in the classroom an it is an excellent resource. When I have particularly challenging students, I listen to it in my car on the way to work to help refresh how to deal with these kiddos. I would also recommend looking into a more global behavior approach for your school. Look into "Vision Management" by Diana Day. We are beginning to use this in our schools and are currently getting trained in this and I think it might be...

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Re: Love and Logic for Middle School...
Posted by:GigglesnGrins #135018

The first school that I worked at was a middle school (5-8) and the whole school used the Love and Logic approach, especially the principal. It was amazing to me how well it did work with these students. I was not teaching in the building when they first started using it and I heard from some of the other staff that it took a little while to get the students used to this approach, but while I was there it really cut down on discipline problems. It also made dealing with the problems that did occur much simpler. I actually like Love and Logic more at this level than I do at the elementary level.

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L & L
Posted by:nuhusker98 #126868

When I started teaching at my current school 6 years ago, I was thrown into the whole love and logic system. I too, believed that I used many of their strategies under a different name. It was only when I went through the training that I truly understood and appreciated the techniques that go along with the program. Here are my favorites:
1. A child comes to you with a tattle about another student. You reply, "I'm sorry he/she made you feel this way. What are you going to do about it?" This throws the responsibility of dealing with tattletales to the students. Of course, if there is something major that happens, like hitting, might want to get more involved.

2. Homework, homework, homework...again, the student does not turn in the homework. When talking with the student, with...

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Love and Logic
Posted by:Tex #135020

I use the system in my classroom and am a staunch supporter.
If the child continues to disrupt when you put them in the quiet area you again give them an example...I'm really sorry you're having a difficult time working in the quiet can quietly do your work in the quiet area or work in the hall? Which would you like to do? The key is to remain low key, don't change your body language or your voice inflection but show emphathy.

The same thing applies to the one liners...depending on the one liner. "Jim, I'm so sorry you felt that you had to be sarcastic towards me as it makes me feel have two can apologize or stay in for recess. Which would you like to do?" Again, everything is in the tone. The last thing you...

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Posted by:JRichard #135021

I don't know about in the kindergarten classroom either (I use it with 7th and 8th graders). However, it teaches them responsibility and who can say you're too young for that (OK, too young if you can't talk and communicate your feelings, but even babies can benefit from L&L).

I am a mom of a 7yo and 3yo. I started L&L when the 3yo was a baby and 7yo was 4. They responded well to it, and still do.

You would be amazed at how even young ones can come up with solutions to the problems. Just last night, my two sons were fighting and not going to sleep (we're in a temporary situation where they are sharing a room and it's not going that great). I took the older son out and problem solved with him (Looks like you've got a problem! What have you...

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Love and Logic Questions
Posted by:trying it out #135022

I read some of the Love and Logic books and am trying many of the strategies like giving choices and allowing natural consequences in my classroom. Last year I had a class of 16 students and found L & L quite useful. This year I have 30 students and am finding it much more difficult. For example, in the past if someone needed space or quiet time, I would ask whether she wanted to work in our cool down area or at her own seat. There was plenty of room for everyone. Now I feel like space is limited and I really don't want more than one student asking to move. Another problem I am having is when more than one student is needing attention/a choice. I am trying my best to give them and myself think time and come back to them in a few minutes, but while teaching I sometimes forget to even...

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Posted by:JRichard #135023

First: There are lots of L&L resources for teachers. First, check out Teaching with Love & Logic by Jim Fay and David Funk. Then, go to the Love & Logic website. They have lots of books and audio tapes on a variety of topics related to L&L:

When the whole class is disrupting (or a large part of the class), I address the issue to the whole class. "Class, it looks like we have a problem. My job is to teach, your job is to learn. When people are out of their seats and talking, we can't do our jobs! How can we solve this problem?" I would guide them through the decision-making process to come up with a solution that works for all (or most) of us.

When two or three people are disrupting, I deal with them one-on-one with...

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1st and 2nd Love and Logic
Posted by:Eydie #121399

I currently teach second but also have taught first. In my classroom I use a mixture of Love and Logic and Responsive Classroom techniques. I always try to keep things very positive and make the children aware of their actions and how it effects themselves and others.
I do use a conduct system similar to the standard "pull a card" because the younger ones just need a constant visual of how their behavior has been. I do start them on an A at the beginning of each day. Also I feel there needs to be a consistant discipline action for major offences such as hurting someone, being verbally ugly to each other or disrespectful to an adult. So for the younger ones I would not get rid of the color card system.
Even though they change a color we always discuss either individually or at circle...

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Posted by:JRichard #135024

If you call the L&L Institute phone number and ask for "Pam's List" they will email you a whole list of energy replacers.

I love L&L and have been using it for 3 years with my children, 1 year part-way in school, and this year all-out. It works great. I am less stressed, and the kids are more responsible.

I love to have students pick up around the classroom for little annoying things like talking. I also have them create my seating chart with all of my clauses (X can't sit here, Y MUST sit there, etc.) They really struggle and have a greater appreciation for how hard it can be. I also come up with punishment-fits-the-crime ones for those less-often, but more severe offenses.

mnolan: I find that happens to me sometimes too. I am a middle school...

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Love and Logic
Posted by:Mrs.H #135029

The Love and Logic books are inspiring, aren't they. It's hard to do everything at school, but I use many of the strategies from the book:
1. I offer students choices-always 2 choices that I am comfortable with. "You may sit at the carpet with your hands in your lap or you may sit in the red square (a time out area in my classroom). "Would you like to clean up now or in 5 minutes?" "It's fun to see this work to your advantage!
2. I respond to misbehavior and difficult situations with a cool head and a calm voice. I try not to let emotions and frustration show when dealing with issues with students. (At least this is what I strive for.)
3. I try to not get into power struggles. When students try to "talk" their way through the situation, I repeat the directions or choices,...

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